Saturday, August 26, 2006

Why MVC is so confusing

I read vikas's blog: http://vikasnetdev.blogspot.com/2006/08/is-3-layered-architecture-mvc.html , which links to http://forums.asp.net/thread/1379168.aspx

This prompts me to think about why MVC is so confusing:

1. First of all, the difference between “design pattern” and “architecture pattern” is well-known; however, the difference between “architecture pattern” and “application pattern” is not well-known/well-established. Actually I feel the latter difference is a misleading concept: if I have a web application, then, should its architecture consult “application patterns” or “architecture patterns”?

I know the source where it comes from -- the SOA. A lot of people believe that SOA is an “architecture pattern” or “system pattern”, and because a “service” is not an “application”, so, a “service architecture” is different from an “application architecture”.

I do not believe so. Service is just a more flexible façade – usually is more coarse-grained and sometimes is async -- in the well-known three-layer application/system architecture. Web is different from Winform, however, we have the same three-layer (or n-layer) application/system architecture. Web service is just a glorified cgi (web). Sometimes, I feel that if those web service people had some hand on experiences with C/Perl (i.e. low level) CGI, then, they will really “feel” and “see” that a web service is just, well, a “web” -- why another architecture? Just marketing strategy?

2. Further, MVC is by itself a little confusing. It is in the introduction of the “design pattern” book, but it is not a low level, pure “OO-only”, “design pattern”; it is an “architecture-oriented” pattern. It has strong implication that it is about the UI – which means, if it is a layered architecture (almost always the case nowadays), then, it is within the UI layer. So, in a sense, it “depends” on the architecture, hence, it is “architecture-oriented”.

3. Another reason that MVC is confusing, my experience, is the usage of the word “model” in MVC. A lot of times, “model” means both the “entity” objects and the “façade objects” in layered architecture (why? because “façade” returns “entity”, together they are the “model”); however, “model” also specifically means the “entity” objects. This is confusing, because “controllers” always call “façade” objects and therefore people feel that “controllers” are “façades”, while sometimes “models” also means “façades”.

4. MVC is especially confusing in asp context, is that for asp, it is not easy to do MVC -- even the “worsened” variation (java/j2EE servlet “model 2” – it is “worsened”, not because the fault of java; it is because of http protocol), unless you do your own handler. ASP uses postback, and therefore, is page-bound (i.e., view-bound; i.e., “V” is inherently inseparable with “C”!). If you use code-behind (by the way, 2.0 has somewhat recovered code-inside!), then, the “code-behind” is something page-bound-controller -- but since it is page-bound, i.e., view-bound, so, it is by definition not a “controller” – I know, my previous sentences look like non-sense – that is exactly my point: as an ASP developer, thanks to M$, we are doomed that we cannot use MVC; as a result of that, in the context that we cannot really use it, and if we do not realize that we cannot use it, then, it creates a lot confusion.

5. The last reason that MVC is confusing is that the general idea of MVC can be, well, “generalized”. For example, “model” is like “entity” objects; “controller” is like a “façade” objects. Also, the way we treat “View” means that we should isolate technology from business logic. However, this is only our, well, “generalization”. MVC itself does not mean those things.

25 Comments:

Blogger survic said...

To be fair to M$: (a) postback is genius; JSF is following it – this time, the dark side got there first! (b) M$ has its own “worsened” variations, see the UIP application block, or, whatever its current name is.

You may say, OK, why MVC? (a) Within UI, separate the UI’s UI from the rest – but we can do this by code-behind; (b) so, here is the special real benefit: centralize the UI flow logic to “controllers”.

Last point: please do not get me wrong – to be frank, I do not really care MVC. I know so much about MVC, simply because I used Java a lot, in my previous life, and I do not really miss that (OK, perhaps I am lying a little ;-), and more and more so, because C# community is getting better and better (I am sure about this!).

Postback is fine; MVC can wait. Anyway, those are just issues within UI, and who cares things in UI -- just use your creativity ;-) – deep in my mind, this is really what I feel, as long as you have solid entities and facades, even code-behind or code-inside do not matter (asp20 reflects this reality). Why bother MVC!

8/26/2006 09:54:00 PM  
Anonymous LudovicoVan said...

I wouldn't say Model 2 is a worsened MVC. They are different patterns, and you can't do MVC on the web due to the HTTP limits you mention.

Breaking this distinction may be leading to most of the confusion around about what's the MVC pattern and when to use it.

Btw, i would agree 100% with your comment here, if you had written "Model 2" in place of "MVC"...

Regards. -LV

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Anonymous LudovicoVan said...

> you can't do MVC on the web due to the HTTP limits you mention

Sorry, more precisely: you can do MVC on the web, but it pertains to what runs in the context of the browser, that is the client code (html/css/scripts). That is the GUI component in a web application. And that in instance corresponds to a winform in a desktop application. There is where you can consider MVC.

MVC can't instead be applied to the server-side of a web app. There is no interactive interface there. There you have to deal with HTTP round-trips, and a web page is no different than a web service apart from type of output. They might look different on the surface, because the framework provides an event-driven cycle to help developers. But that's virtual. Reality is you are answering an atomic request, and you only have Model 1 and 2 to handle this, where -yes- the latter was derived from MVC...

Hope this clearifies a bit more, at least my argument. -LV

8/27/2006 01:08:00 PM  
Blogger Vikas said...

Hi Survic,
This is one of best articulated posts that I have come across on this topic.
But you can ignore MVC only if you are streaming HTML only to Browser.
if you are streaming HTML to other devices (e.g,. Mobile,Excel,MsWord), you have to use some form of MVC.
As you said code-behind is tied to view, it is not a true controller. So from code-behind, you have to initiate a true controller and keep your code(creating and manipulating Model) there.

8/27/2006 05:18:00 PM  
Blogger Vikas said...

Hi Survic,
I totally agree with your comment on code-behind.

Why do you think that Model 2 was worse ? I thought Model 2 prevented spaghetti code (JSP Tags and Java code) and therefore more clean.

You didn't write about XML/XSLT versiion of MVC in ASP.NET. IMO, That would be like going back to stone-age or writing code in asembly language. What do you think?

8/27/2006 05:31:00 PM  
Blogger survic said...

LudovicoVan: You are right, and your point is very interesting also: in Atlas/Ajax, this is real and actually very “natural” -- the original browser can be (the host of) the controller, and the JSON is the “model”, very cool.

Vikas: I said “worsened MVC” simply because I saw some of us was belittling Java’s model 2 … I just followed ;-)


However, let's stretch it: “model 2” is a more limited variation of MVC; in that sense (and only in that sense), it is a “worsened MVC”. As for why MVC is “bad” by itself (“worsened” implies being “bad” first), because it is not as good as postback ;-) – at least I am consistent, ant’ I!


Now, seriously: Vikas is right, if we stream the output to non-browser, then, it is good. One way is to write the handler (i.e., "servlet"!) yourself.

Using Java as a reference: If we do not have postback (i.e. java without faces ;-), then, model 2 is the way to go. However, M$ gives us a postback-face, then, incites us to give up model 2 approach. It is like the dataset, in java, there is no dataset, so, everybody uses “custom” classes…

Now, let’s put aside java -- note that it is not easy to do that, regardless you love/hate java, since Java’s model 2 had been there for so long; and “pattern” implies abstract away language/platform, i.e. borrow things from other language/platform. Doing it explicitly is better than implicitly, because then, we can say, “now, let’s put aside java”.

We can use both postback and MVC. Vikas said “from code-behind, you have to initiate a true controller and keep your code(creating and manipulating Model) there”. The cross page postback also uses similar techniques.


M$’s UIP should be taken seriously. Also, UIP is good because it can incorporate both web and winform.

I agree with vikas comment on XML/XSLT. The only thing I would add it that perhaps tools can change the landscape – keep an open mind :-)

As for me, I am satisfied with postback. My argument is: it does not worth it to centralize view-flows into "controllers": If we change the view, we will change the view-flows about the same time. Even when we do the non-browser thing, if you put direct links in the documents, then, you break MVC – are you willing to pay for that?

The key thing about web is that we should keep session state as little as possible. This is the fundamental reason that we do not need MVC: little session data, so, most logic is behind the façades. Yes, we pay the price of repeated access to databases – but that is a good trade-off.

Then, how about winform and javascript: there are more reasons to use MVC. However, I am still reluctant. This leads to my deeper reason: If you really “need” MVC, then, it usually means something is wrong: you have not done a good job putting business logic as much as possible behind the façades.

I admit, this also means that my winform applications are almost identical with my web applications for more than 80% of the screens, which means my winform applications do not take full advantage of winforms, but that is a good trade-off.

Further, for most business applications, ajax will take over almost all winforms applcaitons, because most winform applications are already web applications written with winforms!

On the other hand, Ajax cannot go too far: for business applications, we only need to make it powerful enough so that web applications are similar to those “weblized”-winform applications.

8/28/2006 09:17:00 PM  
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Anonymous Krishna said...

Hi Survic,

I found you blog useful for me to choose the architecture and I learned more things about MVC.
Thanks,
Krishna.

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